How to identify a Prisoner Moke?

[Schizoid Moke]

And here is a more puzzling picture. This Moke has Prisoner style spats and wood effect side panels, but also has sidescreens, a slanted windscreen and fancy hub caps. The hood/canopy also seems to fit perfectly with the slanted screen.



This picture appears in Jon Pressnell's 'Mini - The Definitive History' and is credited to BMIHT.

[kenbutterfield]

Left hand drive too...

[Schizoid Moke]

Left hand drive too...

Very good point, which explains why there's only a lefthand windscreen wiper ! Curiouser and curiouser...

[Nigel(no top)Sykes]

and, has it got hinges on the side panel covers ?

[Doug G]

How big (or small) are those wheels and tryes.

They look tiny.

[Tim]

Thats because you're used to proper Australian 13" wheels, not those funny little ones on British Mokes.

Tim

[Doug G]

Thats because you're used to proper Australian 13" wheels, not those funny little ones on British Mokes.
Tim

[Nigel(no top)Sykes]

better for turning corners with though

[Doug G]

better for turning corners with though

How about going through potholes?

[Nigel(no top)Sykes]

Potholes on English roads Never

[watto]

Are you sure the Prisoner Mokes were made by W&P? After all, would Barton have been allowed to advertise them in their catalogue if they didn't make them? Of course it wouldn't be the first time, or last, that someone used a photo of someone else's product in their catalogue. Just a thought.

The pic in Jon Pressnell's Definitive History (p97) which is the same pic used in the Barton catalogue (as you can tell from the two people just behind the Moke) is credited to Richard Barton. Is this a coincidence? Perhaps Barton saw the car and photographed it outside the Hilton and used the pic in his catalogue (if he was one of the Barton Accessories people). BUT, also in the Barton catalogue are two more pics of the same car, front and rear showing the rego plate, and clearly taken in a different location - tress, etc, probably a park (Hyde Park perhaps?).

It questions the W&P connection, unless someone has definitive proof of the W&P connection - ie letter, photos, catalogue...

On the Max Hora connection, p126 of the Moke Ultimate Portfolio has two pics of a prisoner Moke or Mokes, with one of them clearly taken during filming. Both photos are credited to Max Hora.

As for Oliver's Moke, from the additional detailed photos I have had sent to me (being used in next issue of The Mini Experience) I would think it is almost without a doubt that the car is genuine.

Watto.

Craig Watson
Editor
The Mini Experience magazine
http://www.miniexperience.com.au

[Nigel(no top)Sykes]

Greetings Watto.... It's taken you a loooong time to post this side of the globe

[watto]

Hi Nigel.

Yes, very slow on the uptake, sorry.

I will try to keep my ramblings to a minimum and only poke my head up when I feel I have something constructive to say (though some people may not agree lol).

I hope to have a feature in TME of this Prisoner Moke when it is restored. My man on the ground in The Netherlands, Jeroen, will be keeping in close touch to see how it goes.

Cheers,
Watto.

[Schizoid Moke]

Are you sure the Prisoner Mokes were made by W&P? After all, would Barton have been allowed to advertise them in their catalogue if they didn't make them? Of course it wouldn't be the first time, or last, that someone used a photo of someone else's product in their catalogue. Just a thought.

If you can find a copy of August 2009 Mini World, there was an article about Wood and Pickett which included an interview with Phil Wood, Bill Wood's son, in which he talked about working on The Prisoner Mokes and visiting the studio after they were delivered, so that must provide confirmation.

From the Barton brochure it looks as if quite a few pictures are of existing specialised conversions, which may have been gathered from different sources purely to illustrate the Moke's versatility.

[watto]

An interesting point. I just dug out my copy of Mini World from August 2009, and it doesn't actually say that.

Quoted from the mag - W&P also converted Mokes for beach use and also some used in The Prisoner television series. Phil fondly recalls going to the filming: "I was 17 or 18, my main memory was being disappointed as there were two men with bits of string opening and closing the doors." Doreen didn't quite make it there: "I was taking a Moke to the set, I put the handbrake on, but it had a combination-type numbered lock on it because it was an open vehicle and nobody had told me the combination, so I was stuck in the middle of the road", she laughs.

That is the only mention of the Prisoner Mokes in the story, and I think it can only be viewed as part-confirmation.

As a journalist I find that relying on people's memories from 30 or 40 years ago is fraught with danger. I had one engineer, who was the chief man involved with the 4WD Mokes in Australia, swear black and blue that they only made two. I asked him which of the two went to the UK for evaluation and he assured me that neither of them went to the UK. When I said I had copies of photos of one of the cars in an inspection bay at Longbridge, he said; "Oh. Maybe we did make more than two, then." It just shows that sometimes what people remember doesn't always match the physical evidence.

So, getting back to the story on W&P - we need to look at a number of factors.

Phil Wood says he vividly remembers two men using pieces of string to open and close the doors of the Mokes. I am not 100% sure, as I have only ever seen a couple of episodes from the TV show, and only a handful of photos of the Mokes, but I do not recall any of the Prisoner Mokes having doors. If any of them did, well and good.

Doreen says she was delivering a Moke to the set when the handbrake locked on because of the combination lock. If this was a Prisoner Moke she was delivering to the set of the TV show, then that certainly adds weight to the theory that the cars were made by W&P - but it doesn't prove it. I have not heard of the Prisoner Mokes having a combination lock on the handbrake before. Perhaps Oliver at Forest Miniatures could tell us if his Moke has a combination lock on the handbrake.

I should point out, too, that neither Phil or Doreen are quoted as saying that the Prisoner Mokes were built by W&P. That comment is made by Kay Drury, who wrote the story. (I will email Kay and see if that info came from Phil or Doreen, or if she has other evidence of the W&P connection.)

Elsewhere in the story, Phil Wood is quoted as saying that all the W&P Minis, with the exception of the Margrave, were built as one-off special orders to meet customer requirements. He also says that the Minis were a minor part of the company's business, with the majority of the work being done on RR, FIAT, Lancia, etc. The work W&P was doing was very much "top shelf", so it makes me wonder if they would have been the right people chosen to do such work on the Mokes for the TV show The Prisoner. I would expect that a company like Barton's Accessories may have been a more logical choice for the TV show's producers. I have, of course, no evidence for that. It is just putting forward a possibility.

However, the photos of the Prisoner Moke in Barton's brochure has got to be at least considered. I agree that it is possible that they may have simply used photos of a car they did not build themselves to illustrate the sort of work they did, but two things need to be considered against that. They have three photos of the car in the brochure, taken at two different locations. Other photos of various Mokes on the same page are taken at various locations, while there are 6 photos of variations of Moke pick-ups (the Mini Truk) taken all at the one location.

Also, as I asked previously, could they have got away with having photos of a vehicle they did not build in a brochure for their own products? I don't know what the laws governing such publicity were back in the late-1960s, but I dare say they would not get away with that today.

Jon Pressnell has the same pic of HLT709C taken outside the Hilton Hotel, but cropped down close to the Moke. In the photo caption, Pressnell describes it as a "Moke with a Surrey top offered by Crayford", but credits the photo to Richard Barton - there's that name again.

So, my point originally was not necessarily to say that W&P did not make the Prisoner Mokes, but to ask the question that if they did, does anyone have any proof or strong evidence, and why would they be advertised by Barton's?

Remember, just because it is written, doesn't mean it is fact. We all get things wrong from time to time but, unfortunately, once something is written down it often becomes fact by virtue of repetition.

I merely ask the question, and would love to see proof or strong evidence either way.

Cheers,
Watto.