4WD Moke Project

[mab01uk]

Interesting 4WD Moke Project here:
http://www.mokesinc.org/index.php/topic,8716.0.html

[mab01uk]

The four-wheel-drive Moke
If the Twini-Moke was never going to make a feasible production car, it did at least have an important spin-off: it led to the creation – under the direction of Issigonis - of three single-engined Mokes fitted with four-wheel drive. The first car was apparently on the road by September 1963, and of the other two cars one had a Cooper engine and was based on another of the original batch of prototype Mokes - complete with pannier-less sides.
According to Jack Daniels the motivation for the4x4 Moke was specifically to win back military custom after the British army had cold-shouldered the original front-wheel-drive Moke. "The four-wheel-drive Moke would have been done for the British Army in the first instance. We thought four-wheel drive was what they wanted. The next thing that was essential was bigger wheels, to give more ground clearance, so we did a 4x4 Moke again, with 12in wheels - which meant we had to change the rear radius arms."


Adapting the Mini power train to give four-wheel drive constituted something of an innovation. "It was the first time a transverse engine had been used with four-wheel drive," Jack Daniels told the author."I kicked myself afterwards. If only I'd patented it at the time I’d be as rich as a prince now!"To achieve drive to the rear wheels, Daniels put a bevel gear on the side of the regular Mini's final-drive spur gear and drove that into a pinion. This gave a high speed propshaft, geared up from the final drive. To disconnect drive to the rear, a simple dog clutch on the nose of the differential was used, operated by a lever on the side of the transmission tunnel.


An intriguing detail was that the rear differential apparently used a casing left over from the ill-fated R-type MG, an all-independently-sprung racer of which only ten were made, and on which ex-MG man Daniels had worked before moving to Cowley in 1935. To fit all this into the Moke demanded a new rear structure. "We had to throw away the subframe, as you couldn't get the driveshafts out through it, so the 4x4Moke had two angled gussets - two very heavy plates - anchored to the heelboard and rear floor, to give strength to the rear end and to the diff unit, which was sandwiched between these two plates," remembers Dave Seymour. "There was a completely new suspension, housing the Moulton dry-cone units in alloy 'flower pot' castings."


A further change necessitated by the mechanical layout was to go to a high-mounted dashboard gearchange, in the style of that found on the Renault4 and Citroen 2CV, recalls Seymour. "Because the drive to the propshaft was going down where normally the gearchange went, a housing was put on the end of the engine and the selector rods were taken through there and the gear linkage exited to a gearchange on top of a little tunnel, operating horizontally in push-pull fashion off a short vertical gear lever.”


The 4x4Moke was pushed forward with enthusiasm by Issigonis - who, as mentioned earlier, always seemed to take a pleasure in anything involving the Moke. 'Mr Issigonis has requested that extreme urgency is attached to this project,' an internal BMC memo of 1964 reads, while a July 1964 list of parts required for the project is annotated 'Urge with all speed' in his hand.


By 1965 the all-drive Moke was being hawked around the world's military. After Timo Makinen had attempted to persuade the Finnish airforce and navy to take the regular Moke, one of the 4x4 prototypes was lined up for despatch to Finland, while towards-the end of the year an officer of the Australian army viewed the car. The greatest interest, though, came from Colonel Herman Nadler of the US Army Tank-Automotive Command, who had already borrowed a Twini-Moke for trials.


By January 1966 he had received a 4x4 Moke for test, and in February, by which time he had fitted it with 13in wheels he wrote to Issigonis, buoyant about the car's prospects. 'Confidentially we feel that the Mini Moke 4x4has a vast potential for sale in this country in that it is a lightweight vehicle with proven components, which in addition to normal terrain-may be used on off-road terrain as well as snow. With some small modifications to enhance the saleability of the vehicle, it should prove to be a profit-making vehicle in the near future. Since its price is right, I believe it will be a strong competitor for the Jeep, Scout and Toyota 4x4vehicles.' Nadler became an enthusiastic lobbyist on behalf of the 4x4 Moke -to the extent that he commissioned artwork for two tracked variants he felt would be useful in Vietnam -but Jack Daniels always felt uneasy about the American officer.


I was always of the opinion that they weren't going to buy cars from anyone else anyway; all they wanted was to know how other people had done certain jobs, to see what they could crib. Nadler was a foxy man. I’m confident that he was sly. I always thought it was wrong to send the cars to America,” Daniels told the author. In this judgement, although no impropriety was suggested, he may not have been mistaken: in 1978 the loan of the 4wd Moke –and an Ant -to Nadler was the subject of correspondence between a Leyland Cars legal advisor and a now-retired Daniels, regarding a court case in Nevada involving Nadler, and in which it seems Scotland Yard had an interest.


In the end, as we know, the 4wd Moke never made it to production. Quite simply; the train of thought it had launched led to the development instead of a tailor made four-wheel-drive vehicle felt to be closer to the requirements of the armed forces. This was the Austin Ant, a vehicle whose only relationship to the Mini was in the use of a transverse A-series powerpack. It is worth stressing this point, as the Ant is often erroneously described as being Mini based; further adding to the potential for confusion, references in the Issigonis papers to a 4x4 Moke often in fact relate to the Ant. As the one project flowed seamlessly into the other during 1966, this is understandable, but it is a trap for future historians.

From: Pressnell, Jon., 2009, Mini:The Definitive History, J H Haynes & Co Ltd,United Kingdom,272pp
http://www.mokesinc.org/index.php?topic=8731.15

[Nigel(no top)Sykes]

It's certainly an inspiring thread is that one

[Dean]

Bit of a revelation to me as I never knew they had tried 4WD with a single engine on the English Mokes . Thought this was only tried on the late Aussies.
Dean

[janz]

Good grief.. that is quite some machining job - I remember learning machine code programming (code 30 - rapid traverse.... ) on Bridgeport CNC machines 28 years ago, loading the ticker tape... and watching the tool bury itself in the work surface and through to the table holding it But that is seriously impressive... let alone if it works or not

[4XMOKE]

Indeed there was at least one, if not more, which is most likely, British built single engined mini moke 4x4s. This is what was robbed for mechanical parts to create the Special Tuning 4x4 Clubman. It differs from the later Ant mechanicals in that it only has a four speed gearbox and selectable four wheel drive, no two speed transfer box as on the Ant. The engine is upright unlike the Ant which leans the engine back by 15 degrees. The 4x4 moke uses a different differential housing to the Ant, although the housing to engage 4WD is remarkably similar, I'd love to compare the internals as the Ant has a system along the lines of syncromesh, not bad for 1968 !
Whether another complete moke 4x4 ever turns up remains to be seen as currently the only remains are the transmission in the ST 4X4 clubman.
Having dredged through Gaydon's archive for some pics of this moke, nothing has really come to light. Odd considering the importance of this vehicle and BMC's love of taking photographs of their new products. It might be better to look in US army's records to find some material, they will no doubt have taken pictures of all these vehicles on test.
It'd be great if Gaydon could end up with a full set of mokes....

[Robin Jones]

Good grief.. that is quite some machining job - I remember learning machine code programming (code 30 - rapid traverse.... ) on Bridgeport CNC machines 28 years ago, loading the ticker tape... and watching the tool bury itself in the work surface and through to the table holding it But that is seriously impressive... let alone if it works or not

The company I used to work for had several CNC Bridgeports running on ticker tape....
The owner finally converted them over to full NC when he could no longer find anyone at any price to service the teletype machine that produced the tapes...
And, golly, a 4 X 4 Moke would be a hoot!
If that project ever gets off the ground, I would love to see the parts become available.

Edited to add: Burying a tool into the table is impressive.... and expensive. And it makes a horrid noise.

[4XMOKE]

Robin, it'll certainly be a one off and not available through any authorised agent or internet, but a moke 4WD is exactly my project at the moment. The clue is in the user name !

[Robin Jones]

Robin, it'll certainly be a one off and not available through any authorised agent or internet, but a moke 4WD is exactly my project at the moment. The clue is in the user name !

Well, at the very least, please take some detailed pictures of the modifications required and the finished components. Dimensioned drawings would be a plus. It would really help people that follow in your footsteps.

[Nigel(no top)Sykes]

Wassup Robin?...... Feeling a bit adventurous ?

[4XMOKE]

Robin, if you want to see pics, try "Mk1-forum.net, technical talk, 4 wheel drive." work your way through it all, I've posted pics of some of the mechanical parts.

[4XMOKE]

Thinking about it.......... My Ant/Moke story should be on here !
Brace yourselves for 4WD info overload !

[Dean]

Thinking about it.......... My Ant/Moke story should be on here !
Brace yourselves for 4WD info overload !

Well said Mr G and I await your posts with interest.
Got any photos of said Moke being utilised as a party buffet table?
Dean

[4XMOKE]

Cheers Deano! I forgot about that party, that's about the best use of my moke to date!!!
Just figuring out how to post pics and reduce file sizes and I'll bore you to death with pics of the bits and the project as it progresses.
(determined after all this time to get it up and running. Or read that as Ed has pushed me back into it!)

[Dean]

Cheers Deano! I forgot about that party, that's about the best use of my moke to date!!!
Just figuring out how to post pics and reduce file sizes and I'll bore you to death with pics of the bits and the project as it progresses.
(determined after all this time to get it up and running. Or read that as Ed has pushed me back into it!)

You don't need to reduce file sizes, the gallery should do that for you.
Dean