'Single' 4WD Mokes

Discussions relating to pre-production prototype Mokes.
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4XMOKE
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Re: 'Single' 4WD Mokes

Post by 4XMOKE » Sat Oct 25, 2014 17:55

Nigel,
I did wonder if it was a vac gauge (economy type gauge) which it could yet turn out to be, apart from they tended to be smaller ie. 2" face.
It could yet be a tacho as there is a "button" that could be the spindle for a rev limit needle.
I did also consider that it could be an exhaust gas temp gauge in an attempt to monitor engine load.

Failing all of the above, it's obviously a flux capacitor. Expect to see the 4WD Moke arrive at Lone Pine Mall car park soon!

Anyone with a sensible suggestion please post here.........




Roger G
My other car is a Moke......
My other Moke is an Ant....

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spider
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Re: 'Single' 4WD Mokes

Post by spider » Sat Oct 25, 2014 18:56

I've gotta duck off to work right now, so I'll read this all in more detail a little later.

Graham, thanks for your answers / replies.

I will say though that the two 2" gauges under the speedo I'd say were Oil Pressure and Water Temp, in any event, I don't think either of them is an Ammeter as when at rest, the needle would pint to the 12 O'colck position.

The other larger gauge to the LH side though does not appear to be an Automotive Gauge, more of an 'Electrical' or 'Laboratory' type of gauge, just the way that that lower section over the movement has been blanked off but the give away for me is that it has a 'zeroing screw' that is clearly visible. I have seen a few Auto Instruments like this where they have a resettable 'tell tale' in that they have 2 needles within, one moves as per normal, and the second one gets pushed up by the first, essentially recoding it's highest reading, but I really don't think its that type of a gauge.
Old Mokers never die, they just smell that way.

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4XMOKE
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Re: 'Single' 4WD Mokes

Post by 4XMOKE » Wed Oct 29, 2014 19:46

Got it!...... Gunsons sparktune. They were testing remote points adjustment.......











Sorry.

Roger G
My other car is a Moke......
My other Moke is an Ant....

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59Prototype
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Re: 'Single' 4WD Mokes

Post by 59Prototype » Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:12

It's nearly a year ago since we were posting our comments on the 4WD Moke. Out of curiosity I've just been reading through what we said between us.

A few thoughts to exercise your brain cells once again! (Apologies if any of the following has already been discussed.)

1. I seem to recall that this photo was taken in the States. That would make sense as the Moke is LHD. Presumably they thought there was some sort of market over there for a 4WD Moke with bigger wheels. No doubt the ground clearance problem was uppermost in their minds and it was an attempt to get round this. The spin off too was that the larger tyres (or tires!) would be more readily available overseas.

2. Those wheels! I am certain that they would have been stock wheels off some sort of Austin. Think of it this way. If you were building a prototype would you go to the trouble of having wheels made to the exact spec that you were after? Something like a bumper, windscreen or body panel can be made quite easily but not wheels, hence the logic that you would use a wheel already available. Remember we are not talking here of a vehicle being ultimately developed for a mass market (e.g. the original Mini saloon), simply one for a limited market.

3. I agree that it isn't perhaps an Ant in disguise but there is some Ant thinking in there without a doubt. What we don't know is where this vehicle fits in chronologically with the development of the Ant. Could it be that it was well before the Ant as a project saw the light of day and in trying out a few ideas on this 4WD Moke they then said to themselves 'OK, from what we've now learnt let's try making a completely new vehicle that has 4WD and larger wheels and we'll call it an Ant.'?

4. Attached to this post is a photo that is part of the late W.J. "Jack" Daniels collection. (A lovely man sorely missed. Unassuming but a very clever engineer.) The photo is further proof that our discussion on this 4WD Moke had a strong connection with the States. The vehicle (or part of it that you can see on the right is clearly an Ant. The plate on the front shows AMSTA as well as EXP and ENG. AMSTA was a division of TACOM which was the US Army Tank Automotive Command based at Warren, MI. I've yet to work out what AMSTA stood for. Does anyone know? Presumably EXP = Experimental and ENG = Engineering. With all that in mind now look at the large display board on the left. No mention of Ant, simply that of 4WD Moke. If I remember correctly when I looked up all the information displayed it was straightforward Moke (or for the most part simply Mini.) If the two photos were taken around the same time, and I have no proof that they were, then there is clearly a good link between the 4WD Moke and the emerging Ant.

Image

Would anyone like to comment further?


Graham

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4XMOKE
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Re: 'Single' 4WD Mokes

Post by 4XMOKE » Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:28

Graham,
A little bit busy with preparing club accounts right now, but.....

I'll discuss all this further with you later when I've got more time.

Talking of Ant development, I've procured a gem of a bit of history. A 23 minute film of the US Army testing a '67 (first series) Ant under various conditions.
The Ant in question has a device attached to the dashboard not too dissimilar from the one you threw a question up about. I'll post a pic up when I figure out how to grab a freeze frame from the film.
This has little to do with 4WD Mokes, but it does prove this material was made in the first place, and it still turns up. I think we have yet to discover what material is out there on pretty well all of the BMC prototypes.
Let's hope a dose more turns up, and soon!

Roger G
My other car is a Moke......
My other Moke is an Ant....

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Re: 'Single' 4WD Mokes

Post by 4XMOKE » Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:35

To further note;
The Ant in the film is a different one to the one in the series of pictures that you've taken your post from. It would seem the US Army had two Ants to test....

The picture of the engine/transmission in the picture you posted is rather interesting. Can anyone see why?



Roger G
My other car is a Moke......
My other Moke is an Ant....

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59Prototype
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Re: 'Single' 4WD Mokes

Post by 59Prototype » Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:22

Roger, after all these years you have succeeded where I have failed! I was told of that film but never managed to track down a copy. Off the top of my head it had a one word title that was a bit quirky. However I can't remember the name!

As for the engine/transmission in the photo I think it might be pure Ant. Note too that it had disc brakes.

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Re: 'Single' 4WD Mokes

Post by 4XMOKE » Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:44

Graham,
I think there would have been/still is, more than one film made by the US Army. Likewise BMC or FVRDE.

It's not a one word title, it's not a one title film !
You'll have to wait until you're back in the UK to get a peek at it!

The engine/transmission pic is of an early Ant, but what is a bit strange about the unit? (Other than the overall design) Look at details....


Roger G
My other car is a Moke......
My other Moke is an Ant....

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spider
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Re: 'Single' 4WD Mokes

Post by spider » Wed Oct 14, 2015 18:44

This maybe a slightly clearer picture of the same picture of the power unit (taken from Austin Memories)

Image

It does appear similar to all other Ant front ends;-

No Subframe
Rack built in to the assembly
From memory, the suspension arms also hang off the Gearbox
Long Arms
Tilted Engine

OK Roger, before I beat it out of you, spill the beans boy.

Graham, it does appear to me to be mid 60's, which does make this even more interesting as Ant development would have been well under way by then.

Tim bought it to my attention a few years back that they did do (and I found out patented) a Single 4WD Moke from which they ratted the running gear to use in the 4WD Clubman. I am not sure what was fitted in to that Moke, but when it was all fitted up to the Clubman, I'm quite sure those Trailing Arms were Ant ones.
Old Mokers never die, they just smell that way.

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Re: 'Single' 4WD Mokes

Post by Wally2 » Wed Oct 14, 2015 20:07

Doesn't appear to be a connection for the suspension arm on the left upper wishbone?
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Re: 'Single' 4WD Mokes

Post by 4XMOKE » Wed Oct 14, 2015 20:47

Ok Spider and Wally2,
This photograph is slightly out of context with the picture of the Ant on display with the US Army, a good twelve months out time wise, possibly quite a bit more.
This power pack was the first built of this type.
It's time slot sits between my first prototype gearbox of '66 (from the thing that looks more like a Moke) and the first series of Ant's in '67 (which used this gearbox)
How do I know this? (It's easier for me, I have the original pic), but take a look at the drive shafts, they're shortened down units that have a sleeve joint puddle welded half way along them. This was done before they had a chance to make up a batch of the correct shafts.
But why not use the shafts from the '66 prototype ?
They wouldn't fit !
The shafts on the '66 proto used a different joint, the same type as used on the 4WD Moke, and hence were of a different length. They changed shaft joints when they realised the extra torque in the shafts from the Ant's ultra low 26.2:1 low range first gear was going to rip the joints to pieces. They changed to Cooper S type joints from there on.

Spider, no one wants spilled beans. They'd get all gritty and stuff....
The trailing arms on the ST Clubman are Moke 4WD, not Ant. Similar, but different.


Roger G
My other car is a Moke......
My other Moke is an Ant....

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Tim
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Re: 'Single' 4WD Mokes

Post by Tim » Wed Oct 14, 2015 22:20

Its very interesting that they are calling it a Moke not an Ant. There is a picture in Pressnell of an Ant wearing that same number plate. It appears to be US army green, not blue like the one in the photo seems to be. Its door is marked US ARMY 01K46167.

Pressnell says that an Ant and a 4WD moke were sent to the US for assessment around the same time. In 1978 they became the subject of legal action, presumably to get them back.

Tim
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59Prototype
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Re: 'Single' 4WD Mokes

Post by 59Prototype » Wed Oct 14, 2015 23:33

There's some good stuff coming out of this current discussion. Thanks to all concerned.

A search of YouTube has found a 30 minute film made in 1966 all about the work of the US Army Tank Automotive Center at Warren, Michigan. Nothing on Ants or Mokes as far as I can see but an insight into how the center operated at that time. As an aside they show a device that can be launched from inside a van and flies up in the air attached to wire to observe the enemy from up on high. We have then now. They are called drones! Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R33FQ1H6xX8

With regards the 4WD Clubman the story goes like this. I've never been able to prove it but it would make sense as to what we think happened. One of the 4WD Mokes that were made around 1964 eventually found its way to Abingdon where it was used to tow non starting MGs off the end of the production line. Roy Scott affectionately called it the Abingdon Shunter! Around 1970 the 4WD Ford Escort was starting to trounce the Mini at Rallycross so the word went out to Special Tuning to come up with a 4WD Mini. The quick and easy solution was to commandeer the 4WD Moke and strip it of all its 4WD goodies which were then installed in a Clubman. The car still exists and I believe resides in Northern Ireland. What happened to the gutted Moke is anyone's guess! Sadly we have never found a photo of the 4WD Moke or any evidence of its chassis number. If anyone is interested here's some film of the 4WD Clubman in action: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=78 ... nref=story As you can see it's on Facebook.

If you should have a photo of the Abingdon Shunter please do not hesitate to show us all!

Graham

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Re: 'Single' 4WD Mokes

Post by 4XMOKE » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:15

Tim wrote:Its very interesting that they are calling it a Moke not an Ant. There is a picture in Pressnell of an Ant wearing that same number plate. It appears to be US army green, not blue like the one in the photo seems to be. Its door is marked US ARMY 01K46167.

Pressnell says that an Ant and a 4WD moke were sent to the US for assessment around the same time. In 1978 they became the subject of legal action, presumably to get them back.

Tim
Tim,
The ADO19 project was a development on from the short comings of the Moke, hence why it was referred to as a Moke for a while.
The vehicle in Pressnell's book is the very same as in this photo. This one is not blue, it's just bad colour reproduction. In the full size version of this pic you can clearly read the writing on the door.
This does not appear to be the same vehicle as the one in the film I have.
Whether one was returned to Longbridge, modified and sent back, or a different one dispatched is unclear. But certainly if that did happen, and paperwork got mixed up, it would explain why BL wanted their vehicle back but the US Army claimed not to have it.
It was most likely tested to destruction judging by the film !
That, or lurking somewhere, is a warehouse full of old BMC prototypes! Ant, or Ants. Twini Moke. 4WD Moke. Various 2WD Mokes. A proper little stash if you can find them!
Those numbers would pretty well concur with the Ants that are "missing" from our listings.

Roger G
My other car is a Moke......
My other Moke is an Ant....

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spider
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Re: 'Single' 4WD Mokes

Post by spider » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:32

Tim wrote: Pressnell

Tim
Probably going to raise some eye brows here.

Jon Presnell's 'Mini - The Definitive History' is a good read and fairly well put together book, certainly some material in it that seems otherwise unpublished elsewhere. On the face of it it is a good book.

However, while there were many fine and distinguished contributors of information to Presnell for his book, there were a few that I noted right away as phonies. Regrettably, for me at least, while Jon did appear to do his best at researching the information, he didn't do so well on it's sources. In recent years Jon has actually said as much himself.

So, sorry, but I can't take too much of Jon's book with reliability, given the small bit that I picked up on, I don't know how 'tarnished' the rest of the info is.

I understand Jon is (or was?) doing an update.
Old Mokers never die, they just smell that way.

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